Back to the main article Other profiles this week: Kenneth Lombard of Magic Johnson Development Dr. Calvin Butts, pastor of Harlem's Abyssinian Baptist Church Spike Lee Renowned poet Nikki Giovanni

August Wilson & Javon Johnson Dr. Ruth J. Simmons, the first black president of an Ivy League institution Fubu and Willie Esco Montanez Online extra: Quincy Jones and John Clayton

Years ago, black youth wore Tommy Hilfiger and Timberland boots in ways that reconfigured the prep-wear and mountain gear to fit in the urban jungle. Now those same kids have grown up to make clothes for themselves. FUBU, founded in 1992 by Queens natives Daymond John, 30, Carl Brown, 29, Keith Perrin, 29, and J. Alexander Martin, 30, was ranked No. 2 among New York's largest minority-owned companies in 2001 by Crain's. Another is Esco, run by 32-year-old Willie Esco Montanez. We found them on the 66th floor of Manhattan's Empire State Building, their eyes focused less on the panoramic view of New York City and more on the business of fashion.

Is it hard forecasting what the average black kid wants?
Keith Perrin: Naw. That's what For Us By Us means. I'm that same kid looking for the [hot new style]. I am the consumer. The problem is getting [department store] buyers to understand. Lemme tell a buyer new Bentleys are in this color and that's why it'll be hot, and he'll say, "These kids ain't buying Bentleys." He doesn't understand our customers.

Is there a lot of racism in fashion?
Daymond John: Not really. The buyers are ignorant about what makes clothes urban, whether it's that black people wear it, black people buy it, or black people make it. But we get put into this area of the store that the Polos and the Tommys don't get put into. That's what the competition is about: eating up real estate in the stores. They're not trying to hurt us. They're just trying to acquire space.

So that culture clash is one of the biggest challenges for blacks in this industry?
Willie Montanez: Well, yeah. When we first came into the game, buyers weren't used to seeing young black and latino guys. They were used to gay, white guys. They were conditioned to seeing that and when a different type of species came into the game they had to shift.
D.J.: But back in the day they used to tell us no, don't do that color because then we're gonna have gangs having shoot-outs in the store.

You actually heard that?
J. Alexander Martin: Yeah. But the cats I really can't stand are those who see an item from someone else and see I have the same item at the same price, or even a little bit less and they buy someone else's because I'm black. If they like a piece and they're not buying it because I'm the same as they are, that's crazy.
K.P.: We get e-mails from white kids saying they wanna buy the product but then they feel that whites and blacks around them will bother them. And we can't be mad at them because you're not buyin' clothes to make a political statement all the time.
W.M.: The thing about designing is you want to have your own label, but you may just be doing $2 skirts for the rest of your life. You gotta be willing to be happy with that, if you love designing.

How often do you shop?
J.M.: All designers shop twice a year in Europe and [throughout] the States to see what's out there.
Carl Brown: Whenever you meet people you check their shoes, cuffs, laces, details, collars.
D.J.: A lot of times we'll wear [some other designer] just to see how many comments we get from people on the street.
K.P.:The sweater Willie's wearing right now isn't Esco. He might wear that for only three hours.
W.E.: That's part of a designer's education. Back in the day, we used to just get a sweatsuit and throw a logo on it. Now we shop for fabrics, colors -- everything.

-- Moderated by Touré, who is a contributing editor at Rolling Stone. His book of short stories, "Life in Soul City," will be published this fall