| Issue date:
February 11, 2001 is
Ever since Spike Lee first stirred up moviegoers with his 1986 indie sleeper "She's Gotta Have It," Hollywood hasn't looked at black-themed films quite the same. Lee, 44, who went on to direct 15 features, including the controversial "School Daze," "Do the Right Thing" and "Malcolm X," was nominated for two Academy Awards. Throughout his career, Lee has made it a point to express the divergent views of the black community, to tell stories that generate talk. But he's almost as famous for discovering new talent. His latest find is Lee Davis, 33, one of Variety's 10 Screenwriters to Watch in 2000. Spike produced Davis' "3 A.M.," out this year. They recently met to discuss the landscape of black cinema.
How did you
two meet?
Lee Davis: I was working at Tower Records in The Village. This was like right before the release, I think, of "Do the Right Thing." Spike came in, and he was looking for a record. I think he was looking for "Love Supreme."
Spike Lee: The one in The Village, though, right?
L.D.: Yeah, the one at 4th and Broadway and I said, "Oh I'll help you out, but I want to show you a script I'm writing." And he kind of laughed and then being Towers they didn't have it, of course. But I showed him the script. He was like, "Where's the script?" I said, "Oh wow," and I showed it to him. I was like writing it in like a notebook and he told me he said if you really want to learn, if you're really interested about filmmaking, we have these classes at L.I.U. And I started going to those classes and that's how we met. And then after that, I made a lot of contacts in those classes as well. Got some [Production Assistant] work. The reason I was working at Tower, I graduated from Fordham [University in New York], but I really wanted to get into filmmaking. So I was working at a job that I could work at night, kind of set my own schedule. PA in the daytime, work at night. Or PA at night and work at Tower in the daytime. So that's why I was doing that.
What did you
see in Lee Davis that made you think this could be the next
great black director?
S.L.: Well, Lee has just displayed talent from the very beginning, but he stuck with it because the day that he talked about was in 1989. So here we are in the year 2000, and I think that people should understand that there is no such thing as overnight success. Here is someone who finished Fordham in 1988. He's done a short, but it's taken this long to get his first feature.
What was the
first Spike Lee joint that you saw, and what kind of impression
did that have on you?
L.D.: When I was in college I saw "She's Gotta Have It." And we were like, "Wow!" We saw it like three times and it caused a great debate on campus. We were all just really excited about that film. Then I saw "School Daze," and again I thought it was a hot film and again it caused a great debate. Then "Do the Right Thing" just blew me away. I saw that in a really small theater in The Bronx. Right now, they play bingo there. It's not a theater anymore. But everybody was just wowed by this film.
Is that what you enjoy about Spike's work, the fact that it sparks conversation and gets people thinking about things that they normally wouldn't?
L.D.: Yeah, among other things. I mean also the entertainment value. There's always a compelling story. But also the fact that when you leave the theater, you're thinking about the topic of the film and most movies are not like that.
You forget them on the way out.
L.D.: Right, right.
Let's begin
with some history. We want to talk about past achievements
in African-American cinema. Oscar Micheaux, the Race Movies
of the '40s and '50's, Sidney Portier, Blaxploitation, Black
New Wave. What period do you consider to be the Golden Age
of black cinema?
S.L.: I don't know if we've reached the Golden Age yet.
Of all the
periods that have come before us, which was the most successful
or satisfying?
S.L.:
One of my New Year's resolutions is to try to stay away from
comparisons; who was better or what's better and that type
of stuff.
Not to say
one's better than the other, but to you what are the great
things that have come about as a result of those periods?
S.L.: Each one of those things has contributed to the tradition of black cinema, which grows and becomes stagnant and it goes back; it goes ahead. So it's constantly evolving. I think of all the arts, black cinema is way behind. There's a reason we're behind: because of how much it costs to finance and distribute movies. We should strive to equal what we've done in music and literature.
Which movie
in your opinion changed black cinema forever?
S.L.: I think when you're talking about modern cinema you have to talk about "Sweet Sweetback's Baad Asssss Song" [1971]. That was a film that really brought back the presence of African Americans. This movie was written, directed, produced, edited, scored ... Melvin [Van Peebles] did everything. With the response the black audience gave that film, even though it got an X-ratings. Just the impact that I think it made on the people. And also on Hollywood because [the motion picture business] woke up and found there was an audience for this film. And then "Shaft" came, then the jailbreak.
[Spike and Davis laugh]
[To Lee Davis]
What about for you?
L.D.: Two films that really changed the way I looked at films, one was "Do The Right Thing," cause it really opened my eyes and ears to a filmmaking style and a class of filmmaking that was just so high with the sound, the music, the acting, and the intensity of the storyline that was being told. I think that another film that, not as strongly, but I just, when I saw I don't know if it counts as a black film because Norman Jewison directed it, "A Soldier's Story." I remember sitting in the theater and it was only like three or four people in the theater and I was just amazed at seeing all these black faces on the screen; from Denzel [Washington] to Howard Rollins to, of course, Adolph Ceasar, who was incredible. I kind of got chills seeing all those black faces on the screen and the story that was compelling and these were characters. These were different people. They weren't lumped together as a group which Hollywood films have a tendency to do to minorities, and just putting them all as one thing. These were all each individual people with important stories to tell and that was a real experience for me to see that film.
That was a
great movie. Now let's single out a few landmark movies in
the history of black cinema and your feelings about them.
In 1968, "The Learning Tree" became the first Hollywood studio
movie with a black director. There were many black pictures
that came before that. How did having a black director distinguish
this movie?
S.L.: Well there was more than just a black director. I mean, Gordon Parks wrote the script and it was his autobiography. Personally, I like "Leadbelly" better.
"Sounder,"
"A Soldier's Story" and "The Color Purple" are a few of a
handful of movies about African-American life that were nominated
for major awards. Does the fact that they have white directors
somehow leave you with mixed feelings?
S.L.: I think Martin Ritt was one of the few white directors who had the sensitivity to really understand the black experience. I don't think Speilberg has done that yet. In my opinion, "Color Purple" and "Amistad" unh-uh.
Are blacks
the only ones capable of telling black stories?
S.L.: I don't believe that. But I think it takes a very sensitive white director to get it correct. Most of these white guys do not fight the studio. They do not fight for the black story. They get the film made. Sir Richard Attenborough's gets "Cry Freedom" made, but he succumbs and says let's have [expletive] Donald Woods be the focus of the story and Steven Biko the back story. Robert Riener, let's make this white liberal Southern lawyer the story and make [Medgar Evers'] widow the back story. "Mississippi Burning," let's make heroes of the FBI when it's been documented that they hated black people, hated Dr. King, did everything in their power to discredit black people. Let's not tell that story.
L.D.: I think the question is, when will Hollywood finally accept the diversity of African-American stories and not just commercialize one particular aspect or one particular view. It's almost impossible to tell the stories of our people in a way that the stories of other people are told. "Erin Brokovich" is a great example. If that was a black woman in that situation they probably wouldn't make that film. They wouldn't tell that story, because they would say, "Well who's gonna go out and see this film?" I think that the story itself is compelling, and I don't know how to fight that battle.
That's one
of the future challenges definitely of blacks in Hollywood.
Is it fear on the studio's part that white audiences, or mainstream
audiences, can't identify with a black protagonist?
S.L.: I think that has a lot to do with it. But No. 1, they don't know the black experience. They're uncomfortable with that story themselves, because they're not in touch with black people. Go look at [all the major Hollywood studio's] creative departments, [walk into one of those] meetings. There's no black people in there. No black people in distribution. No black people in marketing.
Outta sight
outta mind?
S.L.: They're not there so when something is out of whack, there's no one to tell them. When UPN decided to make a sitcom about Holocaust --and slavery was a Holocaust-- there was nobody there to say "Look, this [expletive] ain't funny." Would you do a Holocaust about Auschwitz? The final season of Seinfeld had an episode where they burned the Puerto Rican flag. Was there any person of color there to tell them, "Look, you can't burn this flag"? Would you burn the Star of David? If somebody burned the Star of David on television -- first of all, it would never happen, it'd never get to that point -- but if that [expletive] ever did slip by the JDL, everybody would come down on that network, whoever was responsible would be gone. What it comes down to is we gotta get some of those gate-keeping positions because these are positions where the decisions are made.
The best of
black cinema is someway reflective of our art and culture.
In the '60s, "A Raisin in the Sun" told the story of a black
family striving to achieve the American Dream at a time when
there was conflict in the community about how best to do so.
In the same vein, when "Shaft" was released in 1971 the movie
tapped into the hunger for blacks to gain control or power
in the White world. How do you feel about the connection between
what's happening in our culture and the screen?
S.L.: That's not just African-America cinema. I mean look at "Pulp Fiction." How many films came out after "Pulp Fiction" that were a direct rip off? There were trying to do what Quentin Tarantino did.
In general
though, black-directed movies seem to be very conscious about
the message they send. With that said, is there a danger of
racial politics interfering or getting in the way of the story?
S.L.: I don't know how you could make the blanket statement for black directors. You cannot say there's not one monolithic black director. You can't say black directors all have the same vision or have the same viewpoint.
Well it seems
black directors are more conscious of the message they send.
Martin Scorsese doesn't care if he has a bunch of Italians
shooting up or killing each other. He's not worried about,
"Oh, I'm sending a wrong message about Italian Americans or
Coppola."
S.L.: But it's different.
That's what
I'm getting at. The difference.
S.L.: You can't compare. The Anti-American Defamation closed down "The Godfather" [when it came out]. Here's the difference, when a white person does a film, or any work of art, they're not in the mindset that what they're doing represents every single white person because they have not been subject of degradation that black people have. It's as simple as that. When you've been dehumanized and you get an opportunity, with this whole history behind it, you don't want to fall in line with what's been misinterpreted. A perfect example is Diane Keaton's character in "Looking for Mr. Goodbar." Who wants to look at that film and say, "All white women are loose?" Then you look at Nola Darling in "She's Gotta Have It." Because there was only, like, one or two roles for black women that year, whether you like it or whether you meant it to be or not, Nola Darling somehow has to carry the weight of all black women. So Nola Darling is showing all black women are loose and all they care about is [sex]. So that's the difference.
That's what
I'm trying to get at. There's a difference in the way you
have to tell your stories -- different considerations that
you have to take into account.
S.L.: But you can't just lump all black directors together and say we all feel this way. Lee [Davis'] vision is different from mine vs. my cousin Malcolm [Lee, director of "The Best Man"] vs. the Hughes Brothers ["Menace II Society"] vs. John Singleton ["Boyz N the Hood" and "Shaft (2000)"].
L.D.: F. Gary Gray ["Set It Off"]. We're all individuals. We're all the sum of our own experiences. That's what's going to give us the momentum, the push, the drive to make the types of films that we make.
How did you
grow up, Lee, and when did you become involved with movies?
L.D.: I grew up in the Bronx. My father was a teacher and was a musician before that. My mother was a nurse, and I had a brother, a half-brother.
How did you
get involved in film?
L.D.: My father used to take me to movies all the time. That's when I started falling in love with film. I always used to write stories throughout high school and college. I made a short in '92. It was about a kid who was a basketball star. His father worked for Transit and at the end of the story, we find out that, the kid gets hit by a bus and it's basically been like he was writing this suicide note. He was gonna end it all, but he does not; his father comes home and finds him and he sort of chastises him. The whole thing was basically that, while you may be disabled but it's not the end of your life. There's more to life than playing basketball. There's a lot more things in life that we have to be courageous about. Then I did another short a couple of years ago that was a tribute to Chester Hines, Donald Goines. It's kind of a cop story, set in a tenement. I shot it in my aunt's apartment over like 10 days. Spike helped me out doing it. And we had like a crew of 10 people, you know, hauling camera equipment and stuff up five flights of steps. That was a great experience.
What was that
called?
L.D.: It was called "A Gut Feeling" with Saul Williams and Ruben Santiago.
Tell me about
the new movie, is it "3 A.M."?
L.D.: "3 A.M." is a story about three cab drivers. It takes place in New York City over the span of a day and a half. Three distinct stories that intertwine. We have the great Danny Glover, Pam Grier, Michelle Rodriguez from Girl Fight, a great ensemble cast. It's got comedy. It's got romance. It's got a lot of different things in it, man.
Danny Glover's a cab driver in that? He's not trying to catch a cab.
L.D.: That's right, he's driving it.
What themes
are you attracted to, Lee?
L.D.: I like movies that are about the everyday man struggling to get through life. Blue-collared types, who are doing 9-to-5s, struggling in jobs they don't really like but they have to do in order to take care of their families, to take care of their kids and things like that. Not so much about the big meteor hitting the earth or whatever. But sort of about the everyday problems that we face and how can we overcome them. I think the only way to do that is to overcome them together. I think that's what this film is about, and how we impact on each other's lives and how we can help each other out. And the diversity of New York City and therefore the diversity of character and cultures, clashing, colliding, hitting each other. I wanted to use the cab as a metaphor for that.
What was it
like for you starting out, Spike, and what advantages do young
filmmakers have today that you didn't?
S.L.: When I started, Michael Schultz was the only black director working. You had Richard Pryor and Eddie Murphy. That was it. It was "Hollywood Shuffle" and "She's Gotta Have It" that really changed the landscape. That's when you had a lot more black films being made. The technology has helped, too. Today, we're shooting feature films with [digital camcorders]. And also DVDs. You can use those as learning tools. With freeze frame and bonus features, they're like repertory theaters.
What does it
take to succeed as a filmmaker?
S.L.: You've gotta have talent, drive, luck and time. You want to be recognized, especially when you're a young talent and not taking a particular slant. Otherwise, you're just regurgitating what's out there.
If you could,
how would you change the movie business?
S.L.: I would really make diversity a priority, in hiring and also in subject matter.
L.D.: There needs to be a balance in terms of telling the smaller stories; the stories about family. I'm talking about black families. We don't see those stories too often. I think that there's a lot of executives who rush out to make so many mediocre films in order to have a soundtrack or in order to get a certain star to appear in the film. Whereas there may be better material but it may be a tougher sell.
What is the
difference between the Hollywood you first broke into in the
'80s and the one that exists today?
S.L.: The difference is [studios] are more receptive to the black people, a little bit more. There are more people in creative positions; writers, directors. Also, look at the stars. I mean, some black stars are making $20 million a movie. Chris Tucker is making $25 million for "Rush Hour 2."
For the first
time, maybe ever, aren't we beginning to see a variety of
African-American images on the screen?
S.L.: Give me an example.
"Men of Honor," "The Best Man," "Soul Food," "Shaft," there's action, there's drama...
S.L.: "Shaft" was a remake.
There's the Hughes brothers' new movie, "From Hell" and "Love & Basketball" and "Disappearing Acts." Not to mention the roles that blacks get in mainstream movies. Will Smith. Denzel Washington..
S.L.: What like, "The Legend of Bagger Vance"?
L.D.: There's always been a few instances. Because of Spike and [a few others] in the '80s and '90s, we've been able to get a chance to [tell] the types of stories we want. But it's still tough to get them made. The Hughes brothers are making "From Hell" -- and no, I don't think in the '80s two brothers from [the 'hood] would be directing a film in Prague about Jack the Ripper -- but it took them five years to make that film.
No one is implying it's easy now.
S.L.: But they are saying it's easy. They're saying, because of "Big Momma's House," "Nutty 2," "Scary Movie," and in small part, "The Original Kings of Comedy," it was considered the summer of black film. Look at those films. All those films are comedies. So it's not like, in my opinion, a great threshold was broken. Whites have always been comfortable with black comedies. It's non-threatening. The way they're writing it up in "The Hollywood Reporter" and "Variety" and other magazines, "Entertainment Weekly," like it's something new and showing how white America is.... It's hype. It's spin.
Why haven't
we seen a huge black blockbuster?
S.L.: "Scary Movie."
That wasn't
a huge blockbuster. That made a $157 million. I'm talking
about a film that makes $300, 400 million. "Armageddon"-type
figures. Do you think we'll get to that point where black
cinema will produce something like that?
S.L.: Is that the goal? Is the goal to make good films or is the goal to make films that make $300 million?
Some films
do both. "The Sixth Sense" got awards and big money --big,
big money.
S.L.: A film's not going to make that money if just black people go to it.
Do you think
black film is becoming an archaic term, is that even a point
you want to get to, where you're film is not recognized, first
and foremost, by its race?
S.L.: How is your film not going to be recognized by race when you still are? The day that films aren't recognized by race is not going to happen before the day that people of color aren't recognized by race.
OK, do you
ever see a day in the next 100 years when black people will
not be recognized...
S.L.: When people will look at black people and not see black first?
Do you think
we'll ever get to that point?
S.L.: Maybe. I don't know. Not in my lifetime.
L.D.: A better question is, like "Scary Movie," I think that people just went to that movie to see that comedy or because of the trailers or whatever they didn't know that Keenen Ivory Wayans --
S.L.: But we can't negate the fact that a black man directed that and he co-wrote it with his black brothers. See, any time we have success it's like, Oh!
L.D.: That doesn't count.
S.L.: Him being black had nothing to do with it. That's [expletive]. Now, if the film had lost money, they use that black [expletive] on it. "The Wiz" didn't make money. Sidney Lumet was a great director but they didn't blame him. They said, "See, we can't depend on the black audience." It had nothing to do with casting Diana Ross, who was kind of old at that time to be Dorothy. They want to play both sides when it's convenient to them.
Last question,
where would you like to see black film in 30 years?
S.L.: I'd like to see more African-American women directors. More of our stories, not the same old thing again and again. Not all black people live in the city or come from a single-parent home.
L.D.: Diversity only comes about when you have people courageous enough to give it a shot and say, "Let's try this. Is it going to make $300 million? I don't know. But let's make this story."
-- Moderated by Craigh Barboza, USA WEEKEND associate editor
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