Issue date: April 25, 1999

Speak softly...
Mark McGwire, an imperfect hero,
with good karma,
opens up to Ken Burns

In this article:
Introduction
Moments to remember
A sense of history
The man upstairs
There's no crying in baseball ... is there?
Harder than hitting a baseball
Seeing the writing on the ball
At bat: A mind game
Almost tossing the towel
Detailing the 70 pitch
Karma, Sosa and MVP
Cherishing children and checking your heroes
Baseball's downside: Fame on the freeway
Relaxing in a field of dreams
A realist's approach
Beyond the Cooperstown plaque
Plus:
Great McGwire action e-cards!

Amid the clamor of a superficial media-driven society desperate for a piece of him, Mark McGwire has held his own.

He demonstrates with nearly every word and gesture the truth that real heroism consists of not mere physical accomplishment, but also the courage to transform one's weaknesses into virtue. In so doing, he has elevated to an even more exalted status the stunning fact of his professional accomplishment: hitting a baseball (the mot difficult thing in sports) out of the park three score and 10 times in one brief summer.

McGwire, 35, has confounded us all. He presents not the image of the cliche-spouting, simplistic hero of recent saccharine baseball films, but that of a real, modern, profoundly complicated yet devastatingly honest man -- a man comfortable not only with his own superb skills on the diamond, but also with his obligations as a parent and role model.

Freely acknowledging his personal failings with the same relentless accuracy he brings to his very public sport, he comes across as an intensely restless and probing individual committed to self-improvement in the best sense of the word.

I spoke with McGwire near his home in southern California and found him in person everything we had seen so many times on television -- and more.

Here is that interview.

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MOMENTS TO REMEMBER

Q: How does it feel to be the greatest home-run hitter of all time?

A: Well, I wouldn't consider myself the greatest home-run hitter of all time. Maybe just last year. I wouldn't say of all time. The all time greatest home-run hitter is Henry Aaron.

Q: We are now a few months past baseball's greatest season, I think. Having studied the whole history ...

A: Without a doubt.

Q: And your stunning achievement hitting 70 home runs. Unthinkable before the season began.

A: I agree with you.

Q: What does a few months perspective give you?

A: That's probably going to be the toughest question to answer, until I'm retired and I am away from the game for a long time. The only thing I can really say is the response from the people across America and other countries -- it's amazing to hear their stories. Everybody wants to tell me where they where that night, and that's where it's hit me, what it's really meant to baseball and what it meant to everybody in the country and worldwide at that time. When you're in my shoes, and you're playing the game and I wear the blinders, like, I would say like horses, and you're mentally -- you don't realize what is going on around you as far as what people think, and what they see. Because God gave me the ability to play this game and I am going to do it to the best that I can, and I was so locked in that I didn't understand what all the hoopla was about, because this is my profession. I've worked hard to do what I'm doing and it just happened that everything was falling into place that year. But to hear the stories from the people, it's sinking in but, it really hasn't totally sunk in.

Q: That's so interesting, because when people think about moments that they remember, when everybody stops and says, "Where were you ? I remember where I was." It's always tragedy ... it's always, "Where were you when Kennedy was shot?" I was 10 years old. I know exactly where I was and what happened. But there was something about this year and your achievement that brought joy.

A: Well, I think the thing was there was so much turmoil going on in the country at that time that you saw that what Sammy and I were going though and the country was saying "Hey, this is unheard of." They saw two human beings who are competitive getting along and enjoying each other and respecting [each other], and that's unheard of. And they said "Wait a minute. They're having fun at what they're doing," which is unheard of for people to see, people having fun at what their jobs are supposed to be.

Q: So maybe you were the antidote to this horrible year of politics and scandal and things like that?

A: I think it took a lot of heat away from him [Clinton], yeah, in a funny sense.

Q: Do you dabble in politics? Do you have any opinions on all of that stuff?

A: No, but I tell you what, it was very nice, he [Clinton] called me twice, he called me the night of 62 and then the last game, 70. That's pretty cool.

Q: Was there a moment -- I think the whole country has an image of you rounding the base after number 62 and hugging [your son] Matt -- was there a moment that's locked in your mind that was kind of "the moment" for you? What stands out the most?

A: Off the top of my head being shocked that the ball was a home run. Seriously, I'm like, "I hit it, that's a double. I gotta get going." You know? I think my favorite shot of all the photos I have seen (and I'm sure I'll see some new ones) is the shot of when the camera takes me going down the first base line and then this [pumping fist in air]. That's my favorite shot. If I had to do it all over again -- which I would never take back, but alternately, it would be hitting a home run and at contact you knew it was gone -- but I love that, because my parents, somebody gave me a photo of that and my parents gave them a great frame and then I in turn gave the photo to my parents and it is in their house. I saw it on Christmas day and I was looking at it going "That's the best photo I've seen."

Q: You are going to add many more memories to your life, God willing. If you had to only have room for one image in your mind -- if you close your eyes right now, what is the one image from '98 that is the indelible moment?

A: These are things that I wish -- I've had so much time to think about it, but I really haven't gone over in my mind the whole season. I have allowed myself to just let it develop over time. I'm not going to force myself into "OK, this is what this meant and this is what this meant," because five years down the line it could mean something different to me.

Q: But if you are at the end of the day, it's now January next year, closer to the new season than to the old season, you close your eyes at the end of the day -- do you relive one particular moment? Is it maybe you running back to make sure you touch first?

A: No, I think it was as a kid watching Hank Aaron hit 715 and watching him round the bases and watching the Dodgers -- Davy Lopes, and Russell and Seay -- watching them shake his hand and I got to do the same thing! It's like, I wish I could have hugged 'em all. I know I gave Gary Gaetti a little hug and I gave Scott Service a hug but it's like this -- watching that on Monday Night Baseball, as I recall, when he hit that home run off Al Downing and watching as a kid laying on the floor and then experiencing something great, but not as great as what Hank Aaron did, and doing almost the same thing. The only thing that was missing was the two guys running on the field.

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A SENSE OF HISTORY

Q: Dave Anderson of the "New York Times" wrote a beautiful thing that made me cry ... and you can go ahead [and see it] in the last episode, that 715 home run. Aaron had been hoisted up on his teammates' shoulders when he got there, but he slid off immediately if you noticed and then into the arms of his mother and he said "I'd never known my mother could hug so tightly."
Do you know why she was hugging him? She was afraid that someone was going to shoot him because he had broken Babe Ruth's record. He was getting about 3,000 letters a day that were just the most vitriolic stuff, and that's what so beautiful about your season, it was about unification.
We were all touched by your kindness and thoughtfulness and awareness of the Maris family at that important moment, and you did not need to be. Where did you get your sense of history, where did you get your sense of moment? Why do you care?

A: When I first started playing the game, I knew nothing about the history, knew nothing, because it wasn't taught. We played baseball because we liked it, but no one ever sat us down, least from what I knew or remember, and said "Hey, these are the forefathers of the game of baseball, and these are the people you are supposed to look up to and try to copy." I don't think it was until I started doing things that were historical that I started thinking wait a minute ... when I was on the Olympic Team, we went to play in Cooperstown. I walked in and walked out of Cooperstown, and said, "I don't know anybody there. What's the interest for me to come in here?" How times change, and how people change, and it's amazing to think that when I looked the Marises and to see, they really didn't get to see what their father did and to do what I did was spontaneous, out of the love of their father because they got to witness through me what they didn't get to witness with their own eyes what their father did. I just darted over there.

Q: Are you able to take in the love that came to you this year because of gestures like that, not just the accomplishments, but the gestures?

A: I am learning. It's been overwhelming. It's been way overwhelming. I mean -- there's just the people -- to say "Thank you." Thank you for letting my son and I go to games together and say, "Hey this is that this is what baseball is all about." People would say "You know what? I never was a baseball fan until this year. I never read the paper, I never watched it on TV." Friends of mine that were down in Palm Springs that weekend and they were laying out by the pool and there was this TV at the bar and he said that it was absolutely hilarious to watch how people would move from their seat in the pool to gravitate towards that pool bar to watch my at bat.

Q: I was at a film festival in the mountains of Colorado, and people would just leave the films and they would go to a bar and we would go up and look and root and it was so great ... we wanted to be there with you. In the whole history of baseball I can only think of the summer of '41, when DiMaggio did his remarkable and probably never to be broken (though we thought the home-run record would not be broken in that way) feat of hitting in 56 consecutive games. Robert Creamer the sports writer remembers being in a dusty Wyoming bar that got only one paper and cowboys would come in, walk in the door and say "Did he get one?" Just like that, Did he get one? Every day, Did he get one? And I think your summer did that to the rest of us.

A: I've seen that in some articles, that was like the most asked question: Did he hit one? I guess it got to the point where everybody thought it was so easy. Before a game walking in a mall or going to eat, people would go, "You going to do it today?" I'm like, "I don't know. Let me see."

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THE MAN UPSTAIRS

Q: You said "The man upstairs" has a plan for you. It's as if you have a mission. What did you mean by that and what's that mission?

A: I think the thing -- you are put on this earth for a reason, and it's -- he doesn't tell you what it is. He gives you certain talents. The problem with most Americans or most people in the world is they don't want to find out what it is. Obviously, He gave me the great hand-eye coordination that I have to hit a baseball and He gave me the physical structure to play the game of baseball. There's been so much adversity through my life. Adversity happens for a reason -- to slow you down, kick you in the butt, wake you up -- and I don't think it happens by chance. I think He does it for a reason.

Q: But He gave you an open heart, too, that allowed you to climb into the stands with the Marises, that allowed you to love your competitor, that allowed you to keep your son front and center in all of this and allowed all of us to come along with you.

A: He gave me the ability to be who I am. I'm not going to fool anybody and try to be somebody I'm not. When I showed emotion in my press conference, people couldn't believe it -- athletes aren't supposed to cry. Wait a minute, I'm an athlete, I'm a human being, I have feelings, I have a heart just like anybody else. It's the people that resist from showing their emotions that are the ones that I don't think advance in life, and, believe me, it woke me up because I knew I had some sensitivity in myself but it opened up a new gate for me and it allowed me to show America "Hey, this is who I am." Take it, I'm talented in my sport, I'm a human being that is sensitive towards my son and respects other people.

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THERE'S NO CRYING IN BASEBALL ... IS THERE?

Q: Is it harder to hit a baseball or to open your heart? Looks like to me from this perspective it's about as hard in that way, because you have shown us things so much beyond this game.

A: Well, it's probably -- everybody's different; I think it depends who you are. Some people won't allow themselves to open their heart up for certain things and I as a person am still working on things to open my heart up for, but I've opened it up to know that I have a heart for children, a special place. I think -- they're both very hard. It's probably harder for somebody to open up and show their sensitive side than to hit a baseball. Because you could always work on hitting a baseball. People don't want to work on showing their emotions.

Q: Who or what -- parents, teachers, tragedies, circumstances -- prepared you the most for this past year?

A: I think it has to do with a lot of my failures, overcoming finding out who I was, way back in the beginning of '92. I've had a lot of significant people come in who still are in my life, come in and have left my life who I don't stay in touch with -- the list is long, to mention them all. I would have to say that I think beginning to know myself and understanding what I can do as a person mentally and what I can do as a person physically, prepared me for this. I think back to '87 when I was a young kid, breaking in, hitting 49 home runs and having 33 at the All-Star break and people asking me, "What about breaking Roger Maris's record?" I was 24 years old, it's like -- but I think that day slowly prepared me for this day. But there was so much adversity through those years that made me stronger, that prepared me even more for what I had to deal with this year.

Q: The Greeks have told us for thousand of years that what makes a hero interesting is not just their great strength but their weaknesses as well. And we seem to have forgotten that, particularly in sports where we are always being disappointed by learning a perhaps less than positive facet to one of the people that we have stood up and called a hero but, in fact, are not. You seem to me this year to bring dimension to the word "hero," because you brought with you not only your obvious God-given gifts, but your weaknesses, your flaws, your humanity as well. And that to me made you more of a complete hero.

A: Well, I am not afraid to talk about them, because it's simple, it's like if people look at me as this athlete and they think "This guy, he has a suit of armor on, nothing ever bothers him or worries him." My Lord, how false is that? It's like for me to open up to talk about my going through my divorce, and going through the problems I had injury-wise and whatever, going to see a psychologist. How many people are going to admit that they go see a psychologist? They think well, you're crazy. But you know what? Everybody needs one, whether they want to admit it or not. Everybody has some kind of problems they need to talk to someone professionally about. I'm not afraid to talk about because if somebody reads this story and they can relate to me and if they go get themselves some help, how much better as a human being are they going to be? That's the way I look at it. It took me 28 years to try to start to figure out who I was. Can you imagine somebody that's like 50 years old that never started? If some young kid at 16 reads this article and says "You know what? I'm going through these things at 16" -- he saved 12 years of his life (which I didn't get) to where he can start improving on himself. To me that's important.

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THE HARDEST THING IN THE WORLD

Q: Actually I think one of the best things you say to kids is like when someone comes up and said you're my hero and you say "well you know maybe your mom or dad should be your hero. Maybe you want to consider them."

A: That's the way I was taught. Obviously the generations have changed to where when I grew up at least the kids that I grew up with nobody was ever told "an athlete, an entertainer is a hero." I don't even remember them talking about our president being a hero. Your parents -- you gotta look up to your parents. But how times have changed, how divorce is at such a high rate and how there are children out of -- whatever -- being born daily who don't have a father, they don't have whatever. It's tough for them to say "My parents are heroes," because there are not parents around. Another thing is people that have it don't want to stand up to the responsibilities of being a parent. I mean, I went through a divorce and divorce isn't easy, but thank God I have a great ex-wife and we've made things work out for the better of the children. But, you know what? A lot of people don't do that. That's why I talk about it. I've had people come up to me, professional people -- not in baseball -- but they've read things, what I've said about divorce, and they've come up to me and shook my hand and said, "You know what? My wife and I are going through a hard time and we read what you said about it and we're doing it, we're working on it." It's made them understand that two grown human beings -- OK -- the hardest thing in the world to do today is to have a relationship with the opposite sex.

Q: Harder than hitting a baseball?

A: It's harder than anything, and today the majority of it doesn't work. But you are two grown human beings and if there is a child involved -- who has to benefit from it? The child does. So if they see all this bad stuff that goes on, the child is going to be worse off.

Q: I think then that you've helped us redefine our notion of what a hero is, before it was just doing something spectacularly well in your chosen field, that means you're just doing your job well. A hero might be adding something to it, and I think your concern for children, your willingness to speak about your feelings, your generosity and your sense of history have made the heroic dimension that much greater.

A: Well, thanks.

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THE WRITING ON THE BALL

Q: One other thing: I love the fact that you, a grown man in an egotistical society could say "I am in awe of myself" and everyone in the country would know exactly what you meant and that there was not a sense of immodesty about it. You were in awe of yourself.

A: Yeah. I hit 70 home runs! That's unheard of. For 37 years people have been talking about "Can you get to 60? Can you get to 61? Can you get to 62?" -- for 37 years. And so I get to 62 on the 8th of September and the next thing they go, they go "Can you get to 70?" You know, if they can wait a minute. I started laughing. I made a joke, way back I think it was in April or May, with Ed Farmer who works for the White Sox on television and we joked about hitting 70 and I said, "Yeah I'll retire." And then at the end of the conversation I said, "Well, when I was talking about 70 I meant I was going to hit 70 on the golf course." And then people took that and they thought I was serious!

Q: As if you'd set the marker.

A: And by George I hit 70.

Q: You called your shot.

A: Going into that last weekend, Sammy hit 66, and all the TVs in Busch Stadium were on watching the Houston game. You couldn't help it but to hear it when they go [clapping]. It's not about our game, it's like OK, Sammy hit another home run. Then all of a sudden you hear this "Oooooh." I'm at first base. I'm going, "He hit another one." Then it was a half an hour later I ended up hitting 66 to tie him. Then that whole weekend I'm thinking, I'm facing the Montreal Expos who have young stud pitchers that throw 100 miles an hour and I've never really faced any of them and I'm thinking -- what's going to happen? Then I hit two the next day, which I was like "You've gotta be kidding me." Then I had a nice little party on Saturday night with a few of the players where I was staying. I think there was probably 15-20 of us, and we had a nice little going away party, we had good food and good drink and then at the end of the thing it was like about 1:30 in the morning and we had a day game the next day, we all say "Hey, let's go for 70." And it happened.

Q: Cecil Fielder said that sometimes when he's at the plate the ball looks as big as a watermelon and he knows he can't miss it, and other times it seems smaller than a golf ball. Obviously you were seeing a lot of watermelons this year. Talk about that moment of sight. Only a few people, there are 500 people who are hitters in the world, major-league hitters, and the rest are pitchers and of those we perceive as a populace a huge difference between a guy who's hitting 350 and a guy who's hitting a buck 98 so we think there's a big difference, but just being in that 500 is not that much. But none of us know what it's like. We know what it is like in our back lot but when a pitcher unleashes something that is coming at you at 90-plus miles an hour what is it like to be able to summon the physical discipline, the muscle memory, to hit it out of the park, let alone hit it.

A: I've never said the ball looks like a grapefruit or a watermelon. To me, I like using the word the ball looks clearer. You can see [National League President] Leonard Coleman's name on it. You can see the Rawlings stamp on it. You can see the dot on the slider -- people go, "How in the hell do you see a dot on the slider?" Or you can see the tumbling of a split finger [fastball].

Q: They said that Willie Mayes could stop time, that is to say he would be running around the bases and he seemed to know everything -- he'd look around -- and the greatest players and obviously the greatest hitters seem to slow down time. They can take that millisecond of time that the ball takes to get there and slow it down. That I think is what you are saying when you say you can read the name on it.

A: That goes with really studying that pitcher and being totally, mentally locked in. To think what I did all year I really have never heard anybody say, "Do you understand how mentally locked in he had to be from April to September?" That's almost unheard of, to be on a stretch that long, to be so day-in and day-out and to deal with the media pressures.

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AT BAT: A MIND GAME

Q: How did you? It seems to me that the greatest pressures -- we always use to say about Mickey [Mantle] and the drinking, and the women, all of that the media and stuff like that -- they're the pressures. To me in that April to September concentration, the inner distractions must be the hardest. The self doubt, the conversations, all of the things are going to trip you up the hardest is how to be secure at the plate, is that right?

A: Well, I am realistic about things. I realize the season is a very long season, I realize that when I am playing the game that is where I am at my comfort. Granted there are a lot of distracting things away from the game. But when that first pitch is thrown and I am playing between the lines I don't care who you are, you are not gonna get into my mind. That's where I'm at a comfort level and it's where I am, if you want to use it, psychologically stronger than some people. But you know what? I taught myself that. And that's what you need to do to reach certain levels. I wish I knew that when I was younger, but they don't teach that in the minor leagues, which is sad. They don't teach how you have to be mentally strong to be successful. They teach you need to have these mechanics and this and that.

Q: Do you talk to yourself in your mind when you are up to bat?

A: Oh, constantly, because it's a mind game. When you're playing with a pitcher, it's a mind game. What is he going to do here? What did he do my last at bat? What did he do when I faced him last week, or a month ago? There's patterns; everybody has patterns and you are always taught that these patterns are going to be the same patterns until you break 'em. And sometimes you break 'em and sometimes I think they come back with the same thing. Like we were talking earlier, when we first walked in here, to hit 300, 70 percent of the time they make you look stupid. Which in most professions is failure, you're gone, see ya later.

Q: If you are Joe Montana you have to make 65 percent of your passes. If you are Michael Jordan you hit 65 percent of your baskets, but if you're a baseball player you fail 7 times out of 10 and you are still headed for Cooperstown.

A: I am realistic, and I think the thing that has made me a tougher player is to understand that pitchers are going to get you out. They're gonna make pitches on you, you're not going to feel great, a week, a month or whatever it is. But the easiest way as a hitter to make an 0 for 4 not so bad is: One, after the game, go over in your mind how the pitchers pitched you. You know what? Some days they don't give you anything to hit. Instead of saying you know what? There is something wrong with what is going on right now. You know what? There is probably nothing wrong except that guy on the mound is getting paid a lot of money to get you out, and there are nights that he's unhittable. So I'm realistic about that and I understand that that's going to happen and it makes my mind much easier. If I go 0-for-4 or 0-for-8, I go in and watch the tapes. Because when you're at the plate, you might think things are like this far off, where it can be that far off and I'll look there and I'll go "I don't see anything I could hit," so I'll go home. I'll drive home and I'll think about OK, this is how this guy pitched me, who is the starter the next day? And I start thinking about the guy the next day.

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ALMOST TOSSING THE TOWEL AFTER INJURIES

Q: You were going to be a pitcher, now you're their worst enemy. What happened?

A: Well, I think the turn of events was in '82 when I went up to Alaska.

Q: Ron Vaughn said that you could be a hitter.

A: Yeah! See, every kid hits when they're a youngster. Every kid has a bat and swings it. I just never worked on it. I worked on pitching, and it just happened I went up there and my one pitching outing did not do too well, and we didn't have a first baseman and they said, "Hey, would you like to play everyday?" and I said "Yeah, I would like to play everyday," and that's when I started becoming a hitter and Ron Vaughn was the guy that molded my swing.

Q: Now were you unhappy up there? Because I read at one point you wanted to come home and your dad said, "No, don't let him come home."

A: Yes, it was the first time I ever was away from home and I'm up in Alaska. There's nothing wrong with Alaska, but that to me is like -- southern California and Alaska are like a million miles away, and I was homesick. But I stuck it out. I wanted to retire in '96 when I blew my foot out again for the third time.

Q: Can I talk to you about that for a minute?

A: Yeah.

Q: I was talking to the baseball writer Roger Angell, and I told him that I would be speaking to you, and he said ask him about his lowest moment. He remembered he was in Mesa, Arizona you had blown your foot out and you had worked it back and that game you blew it out again. And he said "God, that had to be the worst moment of your life."

A: It pretty much was. I went through a couple days of depression because I was like "this is it. Three injuries, three or four years, do I want to go though rehab again? This is sickening." But now that I think back, there's a purpose why that happened. And I believe this year was the reason why. Bcause I don't think if I wasn't injured those years I don't think I would have done what I've done this year. All these awards that I am receiving and stuff -- I take it with my heart, because what it shows is I am a perfect example of someone who was dealt so much adversity (which I don't think a lot of people know about) and here overcoming it and this is the prize you get, and I'm happy about it.

Q: What was the moment when you knew baseball was going to be your job?

A: My junior year of high school. I didn't play my sophomore year. I quit to go play in a golf game. I didn't play baseball for a whole year and I really missed it. And I heard it through the grapevine there was some people who wanted to know why I didn't play baseball my sophomore year. They thought I had a talent to play major league baseball, and at the time I never even thought about it. And then all of a sudden I started missing the game. And I said I was going to start playing it again because there is a possibility that I can start playing this professionally and that was the day I started working hard.

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THE PITCH THAT TURNED TO 70

Q: Tell me about the 70 pitch. Tell me about the ball coming, who pitched it, what kind of pitch was it?

A: It was a rookie pitcher [Carl] Pavano, a big, tall guy who throws really hard. I'm sitting on deck and J.D. Drew is hitting in front of me and he gets up there and I'm thinking, I'm like, I have no clue what this guy throws, I know he throws really hard. And the whole weekend they have been very, very aggressive with me. J.D. Drew swings at the first pitch. You know, a kid swings at the first pitch. I think I can do that too. Which is what happened. I would have to say it was probably belt high, more of the inner-half part of the plate. I believe I saw, one of the photos I've seen, it was 96 miles-an-hour. And right when I hit it I said, "You know what? That's 70."

Q: You knew from the second it hit your bat?

A: Not the second, I think as soon as it left the infield, because I saw the height of it. Because it was more -- I almost saw a line drive then it started coming, because most of 'em, as soon as it leaves the infield you know. I remember "70 home runs." I was in awe, it was like you're kidding me, this doesn't happen.

Q: You have a way of lifting the ball out, it is almost like you push it. Is there somebody whose style -- I know you can't emulate anyone's style, you develop your own -- but where did that ...?

A: I have no idea. People have brought that to my attention. I have no idea. I remember the day when I was with Oakland, and I remember a coach pulled me aside I think it was in '85, instructionally, and I remember he looked me in the face and said "Son, you can't make it to the big leagues with that swing." I looked him right back in the face and said, "How do you know? I've never been there." From that day forward they didn't mess with me. Because this is where I come back to saying the man upstairs gives you an -- ability. I never tried to copy anybody my whole life. I went back to New York and this young kid from New Jersey who won the World Series, I got to meet him and I asked the question "Do you guys try to copy somebody?" He said "Oh yeah, you and this guy and ..." and I said "God gives you an ability right? Not to copy, but the ability to do what he gave you." Because I believe in that. Who is supposed to try to be like somebody else? You're not.

Q: And you will never be as good because you won't be yourself.

A. I truly believe in that.

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KARMA, SOSA AND MVP

Q: Are you a churchgoer or do you just have a personal spiritually that you have developed?

A: I think it is more personal, I've learned to live my life karmically right. Karma is very strong and I really believe in that. Over the last few years that has made me more of a calmer person in a lot of different areas and it's made me more realistic about things and realize, "Hey, I may not be able to do things I did earlier in my career because maybe I wasn't doing them karmically right." Now that's the way I live.

Q: Sammy Sosa -- you touched on it before -- we were all so pleased at the friendship and the comraderie. Obviously there is some competition going on, but you once said, "Wouldn't it be great if we were tied?"

A: Yeah, because we were battling back and forth and it was so neck-and-neck until that last couple of days. I would have never been ashamed or anything because we were sharing the spotlight the whole year. Why not share, at that time, the record?

Q: A lot of people felt that you should have been tied for the MVP.

A: Yeah! My one joke is I wonder whether the writers must have been hanging out with Cheech and Chong that weekend. I was told before I went on vacation that he was going to win it. But I was very surprised on the voting. I guess one writer had me locked down as eighth.

Q: My take on it, not suffering the indignity of being eighth on anyone's list after your season was that it was an attempt for people to follow through with what you were suggesting. You said, "Wouldn't it be great if we were tied?" I think it was an attempt by the baseball writers to sort of push Sammy up into that stratosphere that you had brought the rest of us, which was of course on one level a nice gesture.

A: Sammy dealt with some pressure, but his pressure wasn't as great as what I was dealing with. I was talking about breaking 62 beginning last year at this time; he started talking about breaking 62 in July. Then I also had to deal with the pressure of breaking it first, or actually breaking the record, and then he reached it, but holding on to it. That was a lot of pressure right there.

Q: And you're still friends?

A: Yeah, as far as when we see each other, I mean we've done a few things this winter. Very cool guy.

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CHERISHING CHILDREN AND CHECKING YOUR HEROES

Q: We have touched on this before too: You are a single dad, so am I, I've got two daughters that I'm trying to raise, and how has that affected who Mark McGwire is? And what he's accomplished? You have talked about learning from adversity and transforming adversity into results. How much has the personal strife and that obvious difficulty and what you've learned as a single dad been important to you?

A: Well, I think it's simple. I cherish my son and people should cherish their children more than anything in the world. What I do in the game of baseball I do for him. I don't know if he's going to be an athlete; he could be a doctor for all I know. Talking about going through divorce is not easy, but it can be worked through. Being a single father, I think showing, there's a lot of single fathers out there who don't pay attention to their children. Here's a single father that is in the limelight, but is including his son. If I can do it, they sure could do it.

Q: That's perfect. I have two daughters and I feel the same way. They're my most important productions and I tell that to anybody who is willing to listen. Is there unreasonable expectation and pressure on athletes? This expectation to be flawless, perfect role models? How do you deal with that?

A: I talk about what we've been talking about, that I'm not flawless, I've made mistakes, I've done stupid things. The more you talk about it, the more people see what kind of person you are and that you've overcome them. I think the thing is people get tired when people make mistakes and make the same ones over and over. I'm all for people making mistakes and standing up to them. Today, I don't think there's enough investigation on people's background as a person and, not that there should be, but when you put an athlete or an entertainer up on a pedestal so high they shouldn't be there just because of what they do professionally. But you know nothing about the way they were raised, you know nothing about the problems they had as a child. There could be bad things and they just happened to do something great. And what if they do something wrong and you have them on a pedestal -- they did something wrong, but you know what? They've done it 35 times when they were a kid; it's nothing new to them. But all of a sudden they do it one time wrong in the public eye, then you shoot them down.

Q: Isn't it that the public eye is so black and white these days? Everything's either all good or all bad and what you've taught us so much is how complicated human beings are and how much the toleration of that complexity with the undertow that exists in every human life. That what I've learned so much from you this year.

A: We are complicated, it's that simple. But nobody wants to use common sense and talk about it. They want to talk about the simple, the easy things. Relationships, it's like the toughest thing to do in the world but nobody wants to talk about it. How many people in the world today use common sense? They don't, because they sit there and they try to critique and do this and do that. But if you sit down and simplify it and use common sense you'll probably get to that end of the line a lot quicker.

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THE DOWNSIDE: FAME ON THE FREEWAY

Q: I think there's probably -- I'm sure every male in America, and I'm sure a lot of females as well -- as baseball opens up, would like to be in your shoes. Everybody wants to be a home run hitter like that in their fantasies, in their dreams. What don't you like about it all, on and off the field?

A: There nothing I don't like about it on the field. I mean that's my job, man, that's what I love to do. Off the field, I just think it's right now not being able to go anywhere without people knowing it. A year ago from now I could sneak into places but now I can't. Not to say it's a bad thing, but -- at the beginning of the winter when Jerry and I started working together it wasn't bad, but all of a sudden it just started. I mean, driving down the street, watching people's eyes in the rear view mirror -- it's absolutely amazing. I had people on the 405 freeway in traffic, stop their cars, get out of their cars, and run over three lanes and ask for autographs. On the freeway! One of the busiest freeways in the country. And I looked at Jerry and I said, "Jerry, this is something that I'm gonna be talking about." This is like -- it's not bad, it's just something I have to deal with, but if I had to do it all over again that's something I wish wouldn't have to happen.

Q: Michael Jordan told me that the hardest things about being so famous is the way it intruded with the time he has with his kids. His dream of a perfect day is to go to Disneyland and take his kids there and he couldn't do it. He couldn't watch his kids' Little League games, even, because he would just get so inundated.

A: I was lucky, because when I came home Matt was already into winter ball. I was really lucky. I went there and people were great. They'd come up for autographs and I said, "Listen: respect my time. I am watching my son play." I said "If you see me walking out of the game, I will be more than happy to sign autographs for you." He's playing basketball now and it's the same thing. People have been great. And I've been very cordial. Some people have gotten mad at me because I wouldn't sign an autograph for them, but by no means was I rude. I would say, "Not at this time, I'd love to do it, but..." -- see, that's the thing, is when people come in and take your time away when you are with your family, that's the toughest thing. It's like if I went and bothered them at their home Christmas morning.

Q: Your 70th home run ball is in the process of being auctioned off starting today in what most people assume will be for more than a million dollars. Are you concerned about that kind of commercialization?

A: I don't want any part of it. I think it's sad. I don't blame the guy who has the ball, but it's history. There is one place in the United States that holds all the history of the game; it's in Cooperstown. I don't think there should be any exchange of any money. If this guy gets some fringe benefits to do certain things and the Hall of Fame wants to do it or someone wants to do it -- because they have asked me to participate in this thing. They have asked me to A OK this thing with the ball and I have said I don't want a part of it. If there is money in exchange for this ball, I don't want to touch it.

Q: Do you have advice for the person who buys it?

A: I would hope they give it right to the Hall of Fame.

Q: Ever heard of Josh Gibson?

A: Familiar.

Q: Josh Gibson was a home-run hitter, a catcher for the Negro Leagues.

A: No, then I haven't.

Q: It was rumored that he hit 70 home runs one season in the Negro Leagues, where records were incomplete. And he was a tragic, tragic figure in the Negro Leagues. He never got up to the majors. Just before Jackie -- he died a year or so before Jackie came up, and of dementia, and kept having delusions he'd be called up. For a while he was a power hitter, and anecdotal stories are that he may have hit 900 home runs in his lifetime and may have hit 70 in a season.

A: So who kept these records?

Q: Nobody kept the records.

A: So how do we know?

Q: We don't know.

A: It's all hearsay.

Q: Yes, it is all hearsay, but I wanted you to know, as I call the episode on the Negro Leagues "The Shadow Ball" -- there is a kind of shadow story which is all part of it and how fitting that the last Negro Leaguer ever to enter the major leagues was a guy named Henry Aaron. He's not the last Negro Leaguer -- he was the last Negro Leaguer playing, I believe, when he hit 755. There's another story.

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RELAXING IN A FIELD OF DREAMS

Q: How do you relax? Particularly if you have people jumping the 405 to get an autograph?

A: I have some really good friends here in southern California, that are non-athletes that I hang out with and I just have a ball with. Staying at home, my relaxation is being with my son, that's the best.

Q: What do you guys do together?

A: Name it. Playing catch with a football, baseball, going to get a smoothie or going to eat --it's great.

Q: What is your favorite baseball movie?

A: "Field of Dreams." "The Natural."

Q: Seems the the world of baseball movies is sort of divided between the "Field of Dreams," and the "Bull Durham." "Bull Durham" for the realism of the game and its greediness, and "The Natura" and "Field of Dreams" for the emotional component, a sense of baseball as being a metaphor for so much more than winning or losing a game.

A: It would so great to go back in time -- when I think about "Field of Dreams," you get to play with these guys and see how they played and how they threw, the lives they lived. We think we have it rough now, but it was a lot rougher back then.

Q: Who would you like to meet in baseball?

A: I would like to meet them all! I don't think there's any specific one.

Q: Have you met Henry Aaron?

A: Yes, for the first time at the Players Choice Awards. It was real quick. He gave me the award for Player of the Year. And I made sort of a joke that I'd like to get his autograph. Some one ended up giving me his autograph this year, so I have it on my desk at home. I have some autographs that people have given me, but I have three on my desk: Sata Hara O, Hank Aaron and Stan Musial.

Q: It sounds like you could have a very nice conversation with Babe Ruth. What would be the first question you would ask Babe Ruth in your field of dreams?

A: "How'd you do it without any sleep?" You know? It's like amazing to think -- I got to get sleep because I rely on my eyes, your eyes are the key to hitting. It does amaze me, the stories that you hear about the late nights and all the drinking they did back then and probably even during the game, what they ate. Even though he did that, the side of him that I would love to talk to him about is the caring he had for children.

Q: Where did that come from in you? Are there experiences in your childhood that you are confronting or dealing with that is manifesting your love for children and your concern?

A: No, no. It is just seeing how messed up children are today. I have been lucky enough to be put in this position to have a slight say and try to help people out. I think that's where the man upstairs puts you in situations to do something. It just happens that I'm in a situation where I did something historical but on the same thing, I'm doing something for abused children that really came to the forefront. That whole weekend, Labor Day weekend, that off-day Thursday we scheduled to film my PSA on sexual abuse, which has never been done. There has never been a sexual abuse PSA on national television before until I did it. I filmed all Thursday before that Labor Day weekend. So that whole weekend meant so much to me. The way children are being raised today is not good. To see that they are not interested in school, you see that they are getting into drugs, you see them getting into violence, the thought of kids bringing guns to school and shooting people -- there's a reason why that happens, because you have to get back to their homes. A child that comes from a decent home that has talked about things just doesn't bring a rifle in to school and starts shooting people. I see those things and I see the position I'm in and I never realized that you could have that much emphasis on somebody's life, but I've learned that I do and that's why talk about it.

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A REALIST'S APPROACH

Q: Have you put any pressure on yourself or felt it from others about how you'll do this coming season?

A: No, my only pressures is the realistic goals that I have set. I don't think that you can realistically expect what I did to happen all the time. It took 37 years to hit 62 and then all of sudden 70 and someone hit 66 -- that can't happen every year. It has been a terrific year for baseball but it will be unrealistic for people to say, "Can you do it again?" It can happen some day, but to believe that it could happen two years in a row -- who knows? I am not going to change myself, the way I prepare for the season. I might come close to it again. I set realistic things I know I can reach.

Q: Baseball has ascended now. When I finished my series -- and you certainly remember four season ago, 1994, people were pronouncing that because of the strike, the funeral of baseball. They were writing it off; baseball was done. What does baseball have to do to stay on top?

A: I sure hope that the new salaries that are going out aren't going to ruin it. I am scared about that. I don't think that a person putting on cleats and a uniform every year -- for them to realistically not be worried about 2001 they have to go get themselves checked, because I think it's going to be a problem. What do we need to do about that? I think there seriously has to be to be more promotional things for the game of baseball. I look at some other sports and there are some great ad campaigns and commercials just for the love of the game. Baseball has never done that. And to emphasize the fun of the game, we want to emphasize the history of the game, to educate the young kids that don't know about way back when. They just know about now. There so many things that we can do. I am just one player.

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BEYOND THE COOPERSTOWN PLAQUE

Q: Is there life after baseball for Mark McGwire? What will you do beside dust off the plaque at Cooperstown?

A: I definitely want to teach, I want to coach. This is the thing that really drives me up a wall. People say, " ... you don't need to coach, you have enough money." Money is just one thing that comes with the game. I want to teach because I don't think that the young kids are being taught right in the minor leagues. If I can go -- if it's in the minor leagues system or the big league system or even in college to prepare kids to do that. For what I have dealt with in my caree. I have been on top of the game, I have been on the bottom of the game, I have been though injuries, I have been though so much. I want to tell people that you can overcome all of this stuff. And I just don't want to go back in hiding whenever my career is done. You can ask any player or coach that I have played with ever since I got started. I've said I'm going to coach one day. To manage -- that would be great, but I just want to teach it.

Q: How would you, regardless of the all the thoughts of us, would you like to be remembered?

A: I hope I don't die ... I have never feared death though, especially now that I am done. The day that I die I get to see all those guys that I always wanted to meet.

Q: They're going to say on that obituary, you brought up death, I wasn't thinking of that, but you brought it up. Unless you better it some other year -- "Mark McGwire hit 70 home runs and..."

A: You are stumping me. Loved life with a passion. Looked at things with common sense and reality and never gave up.

Q: That's great. But we would add great dad that brought heart to the game.

Photo from exhibition game '99 above by Barbara Jean Germano